Question

We are looking for a “Slider” Induction Hob which can be fitted into the underside of a service counter which is finished in marble or granite. They do not want the ceramic plate itself to be visible?

Does anyone know if such a product is available on the market suitable for this, and if so who would supply it?

Replies

1. Induced Energy and MCS both do them to my knowledge.
2. I would suggest Induced Energy, will be able to assist.Nic BannerSales DirectorInduced Energy LimitedMob:    07788 714599

   Email:   nic@inducedenergy.com

3. MCS Technical Products – https://ceda.co.uk/partners/showMember/105
4. I can only think to suggest contacting MCS Technical Products in Swindon who are very much into niche and bespoke induction products. But I would think that the member has probably already approached them?Alternatively, maybe buy a standard shallow profile induction hob and ask their fabricators to make a roller carriage cassette to accept such a unit?
5. Try Craig @ Induced Energy. Really good product and a really helpful chap. Craig Sanders (craig@inducedenergy.com)
6. I believe MCS do these kind of induction hobs that go under the granite.
7. Yes, Cooktek do a Selenzio Inductione (or similar) which works below the surface and is invisible – also Grande Cuisine do a version as does Catertherm.
8. Induced energy will be the best for this.
9. Controlled Energy. They don’t like selling them if they not building the unit, but you can try.
10. MCS produce an induction based undercounter warmer that will worth through most stones and composite materials.
    It is just a warmer rather than a cooker but a good place for them to start discussions.
    http://www.mcstechproducts.co.uk/brands/under-counter-buffet-warmers
11. Ask them to call MCS Technical, product spec as below:
    B65x-U-Tech-Spec-12157-A-USINTL.pdf 
12. The only way I am aware of doing that for COOKING (not holding) is using the induced energy unit, however typically this needs to be under pyrolave talk to induced energy.
    If just holding cookteck by MCS technical using the incognito is the other option but only for holding.
13. Take a look at the following https://www.controlinduction.co.uk/commercial-induction-catering-equipment/the-slider-induction-solid-top.html as they mention a slider.
14. Contact Peter Rigby of MCS Technical Products for the Cooktek induction products to solve their under-surface induction solution.
15. Grande Cuisine do some excellent units that will go under stone / granite – they are only for keeping hot – not for cooking, but your member is probably aware of this limitationhttp://www.grandecuisine.co.uk/sites/default/files/GC-Brochure-Adventys-Web_0.pdf

Question

I am searching for a 300mm slicer for spares, model is Sirman / Canova / Ital, CNV300AFFR in particular I need the meat carrier and spike. Can any of our members help?

Replies

1. Have you tried First Choice who may be able to supply? http://www.firstchoice-cs.co.uk
2. FEM are the Sirman company in the UK.
3. The UK distributor FEM  hold spares (foodservice equipment marketing Ltd). Telephone 01355 244111
4. FEM supply these, I’m sure they could help? http://www.fem.co.uk/contact-us/
5. FEM are distributors for Sirman.
6. Try FEM – I would think they are agents for Sirman brand.
7. I have attached drawings, FEM can supply the parts.Cnv-ce-4.pdfCnv-std-ce-3..pdf

   CNV300-std-ce-1-2012.pdf

   Cnv300-std-ce-2.pdf

   interr-ce-prof.pdf

   puls-opera.pdf

8. Spares can be purchased via FEM, who run the agency. Tel no: 01355 244 111
9. We often use LF Spares for Sirman/Ital parts.Exploded diagrams are also available on the website.
10.  think Ital products are sold by Nisbets/RB Distributors, Uropa.
11. I’ve attached drawings from August 2016 onwards, I take it you are meaning 002, the Meat Press, p/n 19801235, this has the spikes, but I’m not sure what you mean by ‘meat carrier’.Canova-300-From-August-2016-Parts-Breakdown.xlsxCanova-300-From-August-2016-Parts-Diagram.pdf
12. I would have thought Firstchoice would stock, if not them RB as this is one of the Uropa brands.

Question

Would the members be able to help us with a couple of queries that have arisen that we can’t find definitive answers to?

• Spoon dipper wells – we’ve put a cold-water feed, chef wants hot. What is the recommendation?
• Bar sinks – 2 slop sinks with cold water, wash hand basin with hot (and hot water in sinks in the back room) – Bar manager says all sinks should have hot and cold. Is he correct?

As I said I can’t find ‘proper’ answers but would welcome the advice of my learned colleagues.

Replies

1. The answer is mixer valves. Hot and cold mixed.
2. Please find below a link from Food Standards agency page 7 handwash should be hot and cold, page 9 sinks should be able to be sanitised (you cannot do this with just cold)hygieneguidebooklet.pdfAs for spoon dipper wells if this is a fixed well as opposed to a removable one then we would normally connect to a hot supply.
3. We don’t do many bars so our experience is limited.
   For a slop sink cold water should suffice in sluicing down and discarded drinks – I imagine hot would assist with clearing down any cocktail/cream liqueur ingredients with a fat content. This might be what the client is driving at?
   Regarding the spoon dipper wells I can only think that the chef wants warmth in the metal of the spoon, to assist in food leaving the spoon onto the plate (as well as cleaning the spoon between scoops).
   I am not aware of either being a ‘requirement’ as such.
   I hope this is of some use.
4. Sorry I am not sure maybe speak to WIAPS/WRAS.
5. With regards to dipper wells it should only ever be cold feed, aside of anything else it is (or should be) constant running water and with a hot connection you would be literally pouring money down the drain – dipper wells do use a surprisingly large amount of water even with the tap turned to a very slow flow.
   As for slops sinks I would tend to spec both hot and cold but there isn’t a specific requirement or reason for hot it’s down to personal preference.

Question

We have had a couple of issues lately with 430 steel used for legs and undershelves being contaminated on sites.  We have tested independently and the only result back is saying that the item is contaminated but not specific.  We have been down the route of checking what the items are being cleaned with and that is all fine.  They are separates sites and on some sites we have old 430 tables next to new 430 tables the old ones are fine and the new ones are showing the contamination.  It is baffling, please could you ask members if anyone is having any similar issues.

We have also spoken to our fabrication company and they cannot answer this either.  Any assistance or similar issues appreciated.

Replies

1. Two separate sites with the same problem with the same fabricator supplying both? I had a similar issue of contamination being caused by the fabricator grinding in the vicinity of 430g  sheets in their workshop thus covering it with mild steel particles without knowing. I’d be looking at the fabricator or at least asking them to explain how it’s possible.
2. When they say “contaminated” what do they mean, as I had a customer a year ago that had small rust spots appearing over the surface and undershelves of tabling in the kitchen. The kitchen was not used regularly as it was a small function area.I was advised that these were caused by using bleach products for cleaning..
3. We have experienced a similar problem on a site last year, we found that the steel had reacted with a sealing agent put on the tiles on the kitchen floor, could be worth checking if the floor has been replaced/sealed recently?
4. I have spoken to Williams Refrigeration about a similar issue with some of their new cabinets – the adhesive used on the laser wrapping is a different grade and subsequently if not cleaned off on first use it created what looked a lot like rust all over that wouldn’t come off with normal cleaning, was actually dirt mixed with adhesive in the grain of the steel. Sounded like a bad excuse but in fairness it did turn out to be the case and it very much looked like rust, I’ve seen the same thing on fab from CED where 430 is being used.
5. Yes, we had a similar problem in the last year with wall shelves at a pizza restaurant. They were reported by our client as ‘rusting’ – basically rust coloured discolouration and slight pitting.We queries the sheet quality but the fabricator concerned said they’d had no issues with 430 and ours was a one-off. The client (well known to us) swore that he and his staff were not cleaning down with bleach and were also not placing wet iron trays on the shelves. The ‘staining’ was also appearing on the underside of the shelves. In the end the fabricators did replace the shelves – this was about 6 weeks ago and we’ve heard nothing further, which tends to make us doubt the assurances about the raw material!
6. I have had this issue where the site has used a high acid floor cleaner with no overnight ventilation, older tables can have a thin coat of ingrained  oil after years of kitchen use, the legs rarely get cleaned so they get a small level of protection.
   It doesn’t have to be direct contact with the steel to cause the problem, it’s worth checking to see if the contamination is worse at the bottom, getting less higher up.
7. With 430 steel the parameters for the ferrous content can vary from supplier to supplier i.e. 430 stainless steel from overseas may well have more ferrous than stainless steel manufactured in the UK. I cant remember percentages but suspect the problem is connected.
8. We had a situation once. All grades are certified so not likely it not what it supposed to be. In our case we eventually realised the  fabricator was grinding other metals close to were the tables were being made and this contaminated the stainless. The only way this was cured was to completely re polish the stainless with an industrial polisher.
9. A photo of the problem might be helpful as it would possibly confirm if the problem is due to Electrolytic action by dissimilar metals. This could show itself as a “blueing” effect, pitting would certainly indicate the presence of some form of stronger acid or sodium chloride (salt) solution.
   If some of the table legs are in a moist area then that might be the reason for the differing effects.
   If the legs have been independently tested then I would have expected the metallurgist to have explained the possibilities. As always I would be pleased to talk it through with the member but it is a long time ago since I took my exams in Metallurgy.
10. We have always used 430 for our frames/undershelves without a problem. The only similar experience I had was a few years ago when a client was complaining that the stainless steel fabrications we had installed were ‘rusting’. We too had used the same fabrication supplier for years without any problems, so though it was a little strange. It turned out that they were not properly rinsing off the cleaning products (detergents and/or bleach) during normal washing down and the problem was being caused by the residual product left on the surface of the stainless. This was resolved by cleaning the contamination off with a very fine wire wool and ensuring proper washing down with fresh water during cleaning. As far as I know this resolved their issue.
    Hope that this may help somewhat.

Question

We have a customer looking to have a maintenance on an LPG mobile catering van at a large site in Fife and have a certificate issued. Can you ask our associates if anyone can carry out this work or if they can recommend anyone.

Replies

1. Speak to Ben at NWCE – http://www.nwce.co.uk/
2. Check on Ncass website for nearest LPG mobile catering engineer.
3. Catering Supply and Repairs have an engineer who is available to help.www.csr-ltd.co.ukT: 01324 552601 (Option 1)
4. Catering Supplies & Repairs – 01324 552601 option 1
5. They could try Kingston Catering his name is Robert on 07811 368955 he says he has the relevant qualification, but they must carry out due diligence themselves.

Question

Does anyone know who makes/imports something like these copper pans ideally for use with induction but if not just use with ceran plates. Thank you

Replies

1. Try Paula Shirlock – paula.sherlock@signature-fse.com – not sure that it’s specific to the style but we have used copper pans on both induction and electric / Gas appliances. she only works through distribution.
2. Far East Industries Ltd.
3. The only supplier I could think of was Mauviel, they don’t have that exact one as your pic.‘You could be perhaps interested in our hammered Items ? you will find this product in our M’Tradition collection (see above picture).’Contact details below should you want to get in touch – Myriam GACEM m.gacem@mauviel.com
4. Please refer to http://skyra.in/skyserv-induction-chafers

Question

Does any of our members have a good contact that can help with the disposal of old commercial refrigeration units as we are constantly asked to remove old when supplying replacements?

Replies

1. Fosters and Williams do good rate if replacing with theirs or CEF but over £150 unit.
2. All the fridge manufacturers or wholesalers would remove for a set price. For instance Foster charge £58 per cabinet to remove environmentally if they are delivering a new cabinet at the same time. Prices vary according according to the supplier.
3. When supply replacements – get the manufacturer to pick up the old unit.
4. We have tended to have the old uplifted with the new cabinet being supplied and charged for the services accordingly.
5. It depends upon the members location of course but we use Pentland Wholesale who charge £40 per cabinet.
6. We use HLCE Group, they are very reliable and dispose of units in an environmentally safe way.  Their number is 01162 602222 or 01162 601133.
7. Fosters will take away and dispose for a nominal fee if its their kit that’s being delivererd (I believe Gram and Williams offer a similar deal).
   Otherwise I use our logistics company IAC to take them away and dispose of them (and yes usually its part of a refurb so we put the old fridges to one side and they collect them when they do the delivery of the new stuff – I only pay about £30 for them to take away, degas and dispose).
8. We have had many issues over the last few years with this so always quote the suppliers disposal service as an option to the customer.
   Most collect an old unit on delivery of the new it just has to be outside ready to be taken.
9. Ask them to check out a company called Cool Concerns or Solutions they used to dispose of all our stuff across the country.
10. Although does come with a cost we usually get the manufacturer/supplier to take the old away when delivering the new.

Question

Not a new problem I know but we are struggling to find engineers at the moment despite advertising widely including in Catering Insight and others etc and offering good packages.

Please could ceda ask if any members have had success in advertising for such staff in any particular media or on-line marketplace?

Replies

1. It’s always a problem that’s why we have ran an apprentice scheme for last 10 years breeding our own as such not much help in short term but it was our only way to a solution. 90% of ours are home grown as such and we’re taking on 3 more this year.
2. Have some sympathy with them. We are trying too! We have taken a couple of guys recently who are from other aspects of our industry, not sure if that is helpful.
3. Catering Insight offers no value at all for finding engineers in my opinion. We have great success using CV Bay.
4. t’s absolutely dire.  We can advertise and get not one single reply and we also desperately need two more Catering Engineers.  We can train all other types of job functions but with the syllabus for Gas, we can’t cover it all because we’re specialists and there isn’t a single college providing appropriate courses.I honestly think that’s where we should aim our efforts.  We’ve invested in the East Kilbride Engineering Training Group over the past two years for 2 Apprentices on a 26 week block training with 4 days there and 1 at a local college doing another course.  The standard of intake was really poor, and we had to put them through a Glasgow City Council scheme to get any grant contribution.  The City Council were absolutely hopeless and in the end the East Kilbride people provided names, we interviewed – they were not the standard we wanted but we decided to try because boys can be late developers and put them through the Council application afterwards to get the grant.One boy did one term and deemed it too far to travel to East Kilbride (it was costing us £8000 for the course), and the other has just completed his 2^nd year with us but is really not up to standard.  Neither will be Engineers but it was difficult to attract the right calibre for anything at 16/17.  We have taken a late Apprentice at 24 who is turning out extremely well.

   We are in the same boat for Engineers and I think possibly a route to try is to take a partly qualified guy and invest in him.  I did have that conversation at the CEDA Conference last year with someone who said that was all very well but then they went off to work for themselves.  Well, you have to take a chance all through business and some you win and some you lose.  Good luck to the member trying.

5. Had no success re media. It’s been word of mouth. Head hunting or agency.

Question

Please could you ask ceda members if any of them recommend a company for grease trap servicing?

Replies

1. Aluline (Group) Limited
   59-62 Brindley Road
   Astmoor Industrial Estate
   Runcorn
   Cheshire
   WA7 1PFTel Number +44 (0)1928 563532
   Fax number +44 (0)1928 580224
2. I know that EPAS do provide servicing for machines they fit so may be able to help. If not I’m sure they’ll be able to point you in the right direction; Gareth O’Neill is very helpful.Environmental Products and Services Ltd.
   UK Office
   Unit 6
   Phoenix Court
   Whitehill Industrial Estate
   Hammond Avenue
   South Reddish
   Stockport
   Manchester
   SK4 1PQTel: 0161 477 5555

   Tel: 0161 477 4608

   Freephone No: 0800 0778842

   Email: Stockport@EPAS-ltd.com

3. Watling Hope – 01789 740757
4. Roz Dean, RG Facilities – Tel: 07545 429754
5. Mechline Developments Ltd – http://www.mechline.com/

Question

Could you ask the members if they’ve ever been asked (or indeed if they HAVE) £10m Professional Indemnity insurance?

We currently have £1m and that has been sufficient until this latest request apparently initiated by the leaseholder of the building to increase it to £10m and also the guarantee to hold for 12 years.

Whilst I’m getting a quote from our insurance agents (who think it will be in the £10k plus cost) – has anyone else been asked or do they have thoughts on this?

Replies

1. As businesses grow and their exposure into the market also does in particular working in Leased Properties and Main Contractor Sites then the insurance requirements also rise I’m afraid.
   It is typical for a business with spread of this work to be requested hold the following as a minimum requirement
   • 10m Products
   • 10m Public
   • 5m Design

   In some cases you may also be asked to secure a Performance Bond which can be facilitated by the Bank.
   Hope this helps.

2. We have 1 million however were also asked for 12 Years so we charged the client the whole amount for it which was £20 k over the 12 Years.
3. We have £10m P.I. insurance which is broken down as follows;Professional Indemnity
   Limit of Indemnity: £5,000,000 any one occurrence.
   Professional Indemnity Excess of Loss.
   Limit of Indemnity: £5,000,000 any one occurrence.TOTAL PROFESSIONAL INDEMNITY LIMIT OF INDEMNITY – £10,000,000

   It’s not uncommon in our capacity as principal designer to be asked for £10m cover. But the member is right…it isn’t cheap.
   Hope this helps.

4. We’ve been asked for this amount once in the 20 years I’ve worked in this industry. This was on tender work. We argued back that we weren’t covering the whole of the Councils properties & our work would not exceed more than £1 million. They did not have an answer as to why they were asking for £10 million (!) I would be asking why they warrant such a figure & to justify this, as to increase to £10 million is an absolute fortune.
   Hope it helps.
5. We’ve been asked and it made no sense at all. I pushed back on this exact point with a large national customer and a tender situation. Essentially they didn’t care until I said we’ll pass across the undisclosed costs to them, then they listened and did the sensible thing.
6. We work with a maximum cover of £5m professional indemnity insurance, this has always been acceptable to our clients.
   You do get the odd Collateral warranty document that will request 10milion cover that we always question when you consider the typical size of a catering contract.
   We have never had a client / builder refuse to proceed when we have questioned this.
   Hope this helps.
7. We regularly get asked for £10m even up to £50m, we have £5m and we take a stance that is what we have and that’s that. To date it has always been accepted.
   £1m is a bit low £2m would be the norm, if the distributor would like a competitive quote try:
   Darren Cronin   ACII, Chartered Insurance Broker
   Client Director
   Jelf Clarke Roxburgh
   Tel: 01527 311146   Mob: 07971 065317
   Email: Darren.Cronin@jelfgroup.com
8. 12 years is normal – We have been asked for 5 and 10 million and have always challenged it and 99% of the time it’s been fine that said we have now put 5 in place for a couple of contracts.
9. We have £1m professional indemnity and that has always been fine, we design kitchens for Local Authorities. Maybe the members client is getting confused with Public / Employers Liability Insurance, we have that at £10m.
10. We also have £1m cover and regularly get asked (or required) to have a much higher level. Each time we bat it back along the same lines that £1m should be more than sufficient for our works.
    When we are working on large tenders, they are normally consultant led therefore  we would not require PI.
    When we have enquired about pricing, very similar and you are required to keep it in place for 6,10 or sometimes 12 years.
11. Yes. We have been asked for exactly same, over 12yrs. You can get it from ceda insurance recommended company for 1500.00 a yr. Contact Chris Wheatley at Jelf group. Tel: 01527 311147
12. Might be worth double checking the type of insurance as we have had requests for £10m insurance. We took a further £8,000,000 insurance on public and products liability to meet the requirements.
13. We have just been asked a similar question. We have been asked for 2m cover, talking to our insurance we should only req 500k or 1m at the most due to our turnover and risk. As not one project warrants a policy for miss information  etc over 1m. It’s a strange question and we are also still looking into it.
14. Try Darren Cronin Darren.Cronin@jelfgroup.com at Jelf Clarke Roxburgh. They are aceda Associate https://ceda.co.uk/meet-our-members/associates/show/207
15. This is becoming more frequent but appears to be a standard catch all requirement generally requested by the landlords legal adviser. These amounts are excessive and we always argue the point that the nature and value of the works does not warrant that level.
    We do similar to the member below and quote on a one off basis and give the client the option of either pay the extra amount or accept the current level of cover.
16. Professional Indemnity Insurance.
    It seems that the Banks are asking for this as part of the loan agreement. We have had one that has asked for ten years cover, presumably  this was the period of the loan.
    It maybe that we all need some help on this one.
    At the moment we are refusing on the basis that we are not Consultants and do not charge for drawings. Furthermore we are not qualified to give this guarantee.
    My attitude is that we do not design the water, electric, gas, or air systems we just put items of furniture on the end of them.  We do assist the Customer in putting the items in the right place. But that is as far as it goes.
    I would be interested in the views of someone more knowledgeable than me.
17. We were asked for £2m for 12 years on a secondary school kitchen project and managed to argue it down to £1 for 6 years. Key thing here is that PI insurance only covers financial loss arising from design issue. It is extremely unlikely that the financial loss incurred will ever be over £1m. Also they will be tied into paying the increased cost for the next 12 years if they accept!!!
    Darren Cronin darren.cronin@jelfgroup.com at Jelf is the expert on this stuff – I would advise them to speak with him.Please refer to: https://ceda.co.uk/meet-our-members/associates/show/207
18. We have this a lot and normally a reduced PI is accepted by negotiation (ours is £2m). They will have to hold it for 12yrs if they provide a collateral warranty, which the landlord will require. It could be £1k per million PI easily, so £10k for 10m.
19. We have and require £10 Million for local government and MOD projects. We use UK Special Risks. Ask for Matthew and quote us as the lead I’m sure they will be very helpful – Tel: 01634 862525