Question

Can any members recommend a good supplier for bean to cup coffee machines serving up to about 100 cups a day who are happy to deal with catering equipment companies (rather than those specifically in the coffee sector) aside from Brew Group?

Replies

1. Bravilor Adam https://www.bravilor.com/en-GB/product/freshground-xl-510/323
2. General Catering Ltd can help specifically with returned machines. They have large quantity of thermoplan bean to cup and all machines are in working order with full service history www.generalcatering.co.uk
3. Justin Stockwell @ Caffiene
4. Morvend. Contact: Andy Gurney andy@morvend.co.uk Tel: 0800 9775992. Mobile: 07825 113944. They are very helpful and professional, based in Herts.
5. Best person to talk to is Justin Stockwell, Managing Director – Justin@caffeinelimited.co.uk Tel: +44 (0)1707-278400
6. The only company we have dealt with is WMF. They happily deal with distributors but are very ‘picky’ about installation which they insist on doing themselves and has to be 100% correct. And that means 100% They also like to develop a direct relationship with the client as well, which doesn’t always sit well. Other than that, good machines with good results.
7. Fracino http://www.fracino.com/downloads/brochures/cybercino.pdf
8. WMF

Question

Are you aware of whether many catering companies pay for ‘travel time’ from home to the first job / from last job? We have historically paid 1 ½ which doesn’t seem realistic or sustainable so any thoughts / feedback from other catering companies would be appreciated.

Replies

1. We do at Time and a half as long as they have completed 8 hours normal time.
2. We charge from our Works back to our Works even if the Engineer goes straight from home and unless a customer is on a Contract Rate. It is charged on the hourly labour rate with no additional mileage.
3. Our company has always paid for travel time.
4. Yes we come across this with some of the sub contractors we use.
5. We pay from home to home although I don’t agree.
6. No we don’t we charge one call out to site and that is it no matter where the engineer is, like wise RTF (return to fit) we charge a half call out RTf no matter where we come from and then standard labour when we hit site. There are some customers who pay a fuel surcharge over a certain distance but they are the multi site customers and we go from a contract set point so for example there is a set point in Newport and one in west wales and if we go over 50 miles from that point we can charge the distance less 50 miles , for example 78 miles would become a 28 mile diesel charge @ 50ppp
7. My guys are salaried so this forms part of their working day.
8. This has been a bone of contention for some time, and based on our research it is generally an industry norm.
   We pay from home to first job and last job to home minus 30 minutes from each way. This 30 minutes is an average amount of time that it would take to get to their place of work and back home (Head office) if they were generally local.
9. Our engineers have travelling included in costs due to time/distance element on our projects.
10. This is always a bone of contention. I personally find it greedy to a degree and the analogy I use is that the office staff have to get to work on time and the average travel time is 30mins and I don’t pay them so why would I pay the engineer. My rule of thumb is if they start at 07.30 and set off at 06.30 I pay the 1 hour at the overtime rate. I do understand that with me saying I wont pay the first half hour they will always set off the hour before so they do get paid. It is a very difficult one to know what to do for the best. Unfortunately because good engineers are hard to come by they do have us by the short and curly’s unfortunately.
11. My local engineers get paid from the office in the morning until they arrive home at night while the outside guys, who work from home, are paid from door to door.
12. We had this issue with an engineer, we paid both it is tricky I would recommend you negotiate all travel time no matter what the time is flat rate.
13. From experience, engineers pay is always door to door.
14. We don’t pay for the first 20 mins travel at the start and end of the day. If I remember correctly this was on the advice of our accountant or our engineers use of the vehicle to travel to work would be classed as a perk and therefore declarable to HMRC.
15. We pay engineers from company premises – if they go straight to a job near home then they have the advantage of a later start – if they go straight to a job further afield then we have the advantage of saving the travel time. We pay for 40 hours per week and retain a degree of flexibility.
16. Most companies I have dealt with will pay travel time, in particular the last call at the end of the day, as the geographical area covered can take the engineers out with the region their main office is located.

Question

We are designing the catering in a new build and the main client has told us that it’s our responsibility to design/draw the pipework route from the coldrooms to the roof located compressors. We’ve never done this before as its always been part of the M&E package. Could members advise either on their experience or a suitable reply?

Replies

1. The simplest way to achieve this is to get the cold room manufacturer on site to execute a full and detailed survey, they will then produce manufacturers drawings showing the route. There may be a cost for this exercise.
2. I would recommend they get the appropriate advice from their coldroom suppliers as usually there are oil traps required on a vertical run. They would have to agree a route with the builder or building management as this would depend on access physical provision of the route, so a site survey by the refrigeration supplier would need to happen. Also, usually containment is down to the builder so might be worth checking if that will be excluded also.
3. As a top quality ceda member surely the company who supplies the refrigeration install service would do this as a level of their competence.
4. Our experience of this was to ask our sub-contract cold-room installer who makes the cold-rooms up and was happy to provide us with the layout drawing as they were running the pipework. It does mean faffing around revisiting site if the walls are up and then planning the route, which can take some time. You must ensure that they the client provide a drawing showing all other plant or equipment as we found that the position of our pipe run was through a boiler that was not on their drawings. We also charged for this service . Hope this helps .
5. This needs to be coordinated by the M&E contractor/consultant but it is not unreasonable for them to ask the fridge contractor for this to be provided as a drawing. Suggest they throw back to the client and ask for confirmation of pipework route required for the coordination of the installation with other services and future maintenance. Ask for a full set of cad drawings for the route so once a route is agreed, get the fridge company to plot it on the drawing.
6. As a general rule of thumb this is the norm on most of the projects we undertake. The design and drawing would always be with the Cold Store provider.

Question

We are involved in a project where the client wants part of the service counter to have round ice cream tubs inset into a marble top. They have seen this at ‘Flatiron’ in London. Ice cream is scooped into cones then rolled in chocolate, hand shaved onto the marble top.

I am told that the insulated lift-out ice cream ‘buckets’ are standard but also that the undercounter is refrigerated in some way too to prolong the life of the ice cream.

Is anyone aware of this kind of display? Would refrigeration under be bespoke? Or is there no refrigeration at all and the tubs keep the ice cream usable for an extended period?

Any information (tubs or refrigeration) gratefully received!

Replies

1. Try Silver King. They have a drop in square freezer client could then put a circular collar around – https://www.silverking.com/project/skdi-drop-in-freezer/
2. http://www.ifi.it/en/display-cases-and-pozzetti via Carpiagiani
3. I’d say it’s a Bespoke Item and would therefore contact Counterline or Precision – so they can build to the clients specification
4. I think IFI do something like this – Just remove the lids – http://www.ifi.it/en/bellevue-panorama-technology.html
5. Nemox supply these or Framec they are ice cream freezers. 

Question

We are trying to find a supplier to replace the ceramic hot plates within this servery counter for a good client of ours.

Counter was originally manufactured by EMH. I have tried a couple of other servery counter suppliers who can’t help out. Site location: Guildford.

We are looking for a supplier who can remove existing and dispose, supply and install new ceramic plates to match. Size of hot plates and images below.

ceramic insert
all together 181cm/51cm as one piece
60cm/51cm each one individually.

Replies

1. 1. Contact CED to see if they know where the distributor could get the same plates from and then get service agent to fit them. The counter manufacturers won’t want to do it but CED might know what make plates they used?
   2. Contact Stuart Russell, Sales Director at CED Fabrications Ltd – Stuart.Russell@cedlimited.com Mobile: 07917303122
   3. What about Storer, 0115 9200329 they make the carvery decks for Mitchells & Butlers or you can buy them in from Hawco as one assembly and replace themselves they are usually only bedded in heat resistant silicone around the edges Hawco sell all that is required to do yourself.
   4. Contact Greg Swift – gregs@cateringfabrications.com
   5. This would be something AGGORA Projects could assist with. We would need to undertake a site survey before providing any costs, so would be grateful if you could forward our details to your member, that would be much appreciated. AGGORA Group, Centech House, Centech Park, North Moons Moat, Redditch, Worcestershire, B98 9NR. Office: 0845 1177 555 ext: 132 www.aggora.com
   6. We have purchased these before from spares company CCS. BUT they can be an odd size. You can un-silicone the pad off the bottom of the ceramic plate then re fit a new pad.Not the best job but okay for a good engineer…
   7. I believe First Choice can supply the parts.
   8. I believe the ceran plates and heater pads would have come from Hawco at 600 x 500mm each and they should be able to be installed and replaced as a set.It’s worth also checking the controller system EMH would have used as you may have to replace everything from controllers to the plates to ensure a correct installation.
   9. I would suggest that these will be Ceran Hotplates. These can be purchased complete with the Heater Mats fitted however the standard sizes are 500mm x 600mm each so look like the size detailed. When fitted they will also require the Black Heat Resistant Sealant. We cover this area and could carry out the works if required.
   10. The best person to sort this out is Stuart Russell, CED. He was EMH. Contact: Stuart.Russell@cedlimited.com 07917 303122
   11. One of the best ‘cut and carve’ companies with specialist servery abilities I’ve ever known are Essex Fabrications in Basildon, and reasonably close geographically.
   12. Try Hawco
   13. What about Storer, 0115 9200329 they make the carvery decks for Mitchells & Butlers or you can buy them in from Hawco as one assembly and replace themselves they are usually only bedded in heat resistant silicone around the edges Hawco sell all that is required to do yourself.
   14. They look like standard Ceran hotplate sections? But try Comet Catering in Enfield – they are a high-end fabricator we know well and have a lot of experience in a wide range of weird and wonderful bespoke countering! Julian Webb 0207 804 4779 – let him know that Fulcrum suggested Comet and he should be glad to assist.

Question

A ceda Member has requested recommendations and contact details for solicitors that have been used by fellow ceda Members, specifically on legal issues for ventilation.

Replies

1. I have previously taken advice from Ward Hadaway Solicitors. Fortunately, the issue we had was resolved amicably without the need for further legal assistance but one of their partners (see below) specialises in construction and associated engineering, so he may be able to advise on ventilation. Contact: Paul Reekie – Partner/Contruction & Engineering Unit Email: Paul.Reekie@wardhadaway.com Tel: +44 (0) 191 204 4331
2. Contact Rob Bywell, he’s a solicitor.
3. I would suggest that you contact Build UK as they should possibly be able to help or they may possibly be able to recommend a specialist solicitor. If you call Build UK and say that you are a ceda member you can ask for their advice with regards to your enquiry: https://builduk.org/ Tel: 0844 249 5351
4. Contractual and Legal (England and Wales) – Wedlake Bell – One hour’s free advice per year on construction law, contracts, dispute resolutions and retentions if you say you are a ceda Member. Tel: 0844 249 9871

Question

Whilst we always will attempt to gain direct client orders we have had to accept the JCT Sub-contract route for a current London project.

I have scrutinised the Main Contractors special amendments, which can be a minefield, but have also been required to provide Professional Indemnity Insurance for the Sub-Contractor’s Designed Portion (£10,000,000 for 12 years).

Have any other members:

A. Found a good source of cover for this PI

B. Argued successfully against it (and on what specific grounds) NB: in this instance we have not been the sole designer, both our client and architects have modified our original design significantly. This argument however falls on deaf ears with the head client and their consultants.

C. Dealt with main contractor Jerram Falkus and have any pointers on sub-clauses created by them which have been found to be particularly onerous

Replies

1. For professional indemnity we would suggest that you contact Jelf Clarke Roxborough. Contact Darren Cronin – Tel: 01527 405433, Mobile: 07971 065317
2. 1. A. Jelf Darren Cronin
   2. B. No – basically ensure they sign off current design and record any objections you have on design issues where they have changed it.
   3. C. No – Negotiate each point
3. Chris wheatley@jelfgroup.com is the man. He is also ceda approved supplier.
4. We hold £1m PI and have done for many years. We have always managed to persuade the client to accept it on the grounds that £1m should be sufficient for our portion of the works. There has only been one exception where the main contractor would not change their requirement even though we kept telling them it was a £50k care home. They insisted on £2m but we convinced them to pay for it and have it only for 1 year, which we all know completely defeats the purpose of PI. The QS just needed to tick a box. £10m for 12 years is extremely onerous and expensive especially where the design has been a joint effort. We buy our PI through Jelf who are known to CEDA.
5. I managed to persuade them that it wasn’t suitable for the kitchen element of the project and finally it worked – so can only advise persistence. The reply we received was ‘We have had a break through and had confirmation from Lend Lease that £1m PI is acceptable!! Can you come back to me on the Terms and Conditions please ASAP and hopefully we can put this to bed.’
6. I have argued successfully against P.I. We only do drawings for the convenience of our clients we have no qualification to allow us to take responsibility for these drawings, Nor do we make a charge for design. Quite simply we do not have PI insurance because we do not take any responsibility. We simply delete this paragraph from the contract when we send it back, there is usually a bit of argument but in the end, they have always excepted it. I remember one contract we crossed out about 2/3 of the contract clauses and it was accepted. If they want someone to take responsibility, they need to engage a consultant.
7. There are lots of companies out there, but we use Jelf Clarke Roxburgh. We always argue against it on the basis that what we are doing is relatively small and low risk and have always got the to agree to £1mill to date

Question

A member has been asked about fire protection for cold rooms and it was intimated that it would have to comply with BS9999 (2017).

Has any member any experience with similar questions or related issues?

Replies

1. 1. I usually supply and install PIR fire rated panels for cold rooms where fire rating is required – which can be sourced via any cold room supplier such as Fosters who would typically use Kingspan. They can also do fire rated doors but these are not always required and if required are very expensive
   2. We did have this on one job a while back. I remember that getting fire-rated panels was achievable but involved a special order from the manufacturers in Germany (with associated costs and effects on lead-time). It was either Celltherm or Coldplan. Like a lot of projects, it will come down to how heavily regulated that particular site chooses to be – if the architects/consultants have set the safety bar that high and require such compliance, in our experience it has been pointless trying to argue against it.

Question

We are currently in the closing stages of the order process for a couple of large projects and the subject of collateral warranties has reared its head.

Are there any likely pitfalls that you are aware of, and are we obliged to sign up for this in the first place?
Your help is much appreciated as ever.

Replies

1. Collateral Warranties are a necessary evil I’m afraid and form part of the JCT process. You may find that if you do not sign up to these that the contract may be let to a third party.The key thing is to read them carefully and ensure that you have the relevant cover in place for claims that could be made in the years to come.
2. Firstly are they involved in any forms of design for the contracts they are undertaking if yes then CW’s are a norm these days with most builders and clients.My advice is to ensure they get copies of the CW document completed in their company names and details not just a blank version then run it by their own insurers to make sure that the insurance cover request in the CW fall within their own coverage and that their insurer is aware of the contract and duration.In most cases it’s the value of insurance that needs to be clarified only before they can sign, also most builders will accept you amending the insurance value to your limitations.
3. It seems more and more common.I think you will have to sign up to it. You will need professional indemnity if you don’t all ready have it and it is quite costly. It will need to be in place for the term of the warranty often 12 years.For professional indemnity we use Jelf Clarke Roxborough. Contact Darren Cronin – Tel: 01527 405433, Mobile: 07971 065317
4. These are very complicated. I suspect they are there to protect the client from future defects. Your enquirer doesn’t state what the projects are, have they carried out any structural alterations etc. I would suspect there are some very dangerous pitfalls and would get advice from a lawyer who specialises in contractual law.
5. We are regularly asked to complete these where there is a 3rd party involved in the transaction. Mainly main contractor driven and of a fairly standard format.They exist to ensure that the responsibilities and warranties within the project can be legally passed on to the end client.The responsibilities should be no more than what is in place with the client.One thing which I always check and often need to challenge is the professional indemnity level. Often the level in the collateral warranty be higher than the level in the initial contract, just because the parties haven’t “joined up” this bit. It’s important that this is checked as it can have a big implication, not least in cost.
6. If you call Build UK and say that you are a ceda member you can ask for their advice with regards to your enquiry: https://builduk.org/ Tel: 0844 249 5351

Question

DIGITAL DISPLAYS: Do you know anyone that has a system for the TV’s in our restaurant. We need a system, so we can put our menus/marketing on the screen.

Replies

1. There is a company that brewery Wadworth & Co Ltd use in any of their sports pub fit-outs – Chantry Digital Ltd in Westbury, Wiltshire – 0800 373246.
   They deal with digital signage as well as TV’s and I’ve met Neil Hawker neil@chantrydigital.co.uk at a few site meetings – seems to know his stuff when it comes to AV.
   I’ve just called them and they would be able to create digital menu displays.