Question

We are having some major issues with Welsh water over the use of tundish’s and  “A” class  air gaps on 20 Grid Combination ovens.
Because the drain is so low we are unable to get a tundish fitted and maintain a 50 air break above the tundish.
We have spoken in depth with Wade Drains and under floor traps but welsh water are being a nightmare.
Has any other member had issues and how have they overcome it.
We have ensured all items used are WRAS approved and they have been quite helpful   but DWR CYMRU  +Welsh water are not  helping with advice or recommendations at all.
Any help would be much appreciated.

Replies:

1. Yes, we have had similar issues in different parts of the country. The only option (if rational)  is to fit feet extension and change the trollies to match, can’t recall if rational offer any extensions to the trollies. If another brand, you will need to do something similar or speak to the manufacturer on how to combat WRAS approval, it should be contained within the specific WRAS approval special notes.
2. We recently fitted “extensions” to the oven & Trolleys which increased the drain outlet by 70mm. These accessories are Rational products. Hope this helps.
3. We have had this and we had to fit a lift pump, so the unit drained into the pump then the water was pumped up and into a tundish, you do need to fit a vent upstand pipe In the pipe run between the combi and the pump to stop air locks etc
4. Has the member considered a waste water pump to resolve this issue? By installing a pump directly to the oven, the water can then be pumped upward to a tundish arrangement which in turn can then drain to the floor drain. We use either Saniflow Sanicom 1 or Grundfos Sololift2, commercial pumps.
5. Our advice would be to have site use a floor drain and sit the drain over the drain grate this does not require a tundish, we only use a tundish on 6 and 10 grids all 20 and 40 grids would be on a floor drain.  If it is too late to fit a floor drain, then fit a shallow tundish any fabricator can make or I have seen square type tundish’s used and cut down to suit.  So long as you have the correct gap this should suffice.  Some of our engineers also cut the pipe on and angle so that the back flow cannot happen.
6. Have they considered a Saniflow type system to lift the drain water to a higher level, and then drop into a tundish at about 1 metre high. I’m sure Rational do something on these lines.
7. We have installed a number of 20 grid combis they all were plumbed into floor gully’s but terminated above the gully, so we assumed this was the same as a Tundish.
8. From experience with 20/ 40 Grid or even double stacked combi ovens with any water authority there is always a potential drain issue. The options for a compliant installation are only:
   – Install drain over a 400mm (600mm) sq/ dia trapped floor gulley- no tundish but leave pipe 50mm above the gulley cover. ( using larger dia/ sq gulley allows for catching any splashing).
   – Install a combi drain pump- with triangular paddle from 1^st choice directly to oven then it will pump up and you can then if you only have a 2” drain pop up fit a tundish and a trap to the pipe and suspend the drain pipe from the pump 50mm above the tundish.
   Respectfully trying to fit any drain cover over a gulley that has a funnel or tundish style cover will not fit under the drain pipe and give a gap as required.
9. We (Space) recently fitted “extensions” to the oven & Trolleys which increased the drain outlet by 70mm. These accessories are Rational products.
10. We have had this and we had to fit a lift pump so the unit drained into the pump then the water was pumped up and into a tundish, you do need to fit a vent upstand pipe In the pipe run between the combi and the pump to stop air locks etc. Has the member considered a waste water pump to resolve this issue? By installing a pump directly to the oven the water can then be pumped upward to a tundish arrangement which in turn can then drain to the floor drain. We use either Saniflow Sanicom 1 or Grundfos Sololift2, commercial pumps.
11. Our advice would be to have site use a floor drain and sit the drain over the drain grate this does not require a tundish, we only use a tundish on 6 and 10 grids all 20 and 40 grids would be on a floor drain.  If it is too late to fit a floor drain then fit a shallow tundish any fabricator can make or  I have seen square type tundish’s used and cut down to suit.  So long as you have the correct gap this should suffice.  Some of our engineers also cut the pipe on and angle so that the back flow cannot happen.
12. Have they considered a Saniflow type system to lift the drain water to a higher level, and then drop into a tundish at about 1 metre high. I’m sure Rational do something on these lines.
13. I had a very similar experience with Yorkshire water on a 20 grid combi oven. In the end I had to fit a Munson ring and back plate to the floor just next to the trapped floor gulley and lower it to its minimum so that there was still a fall on the waste from the back of the oven and the waste outlet being hovered above the floor gulley created an “air gap” we actually trimmed some of elbow off the rational elbow to increase the gap slightly. On our site this satisfied the water authority.
14. We have installed a number of 20 grid combis they all were plumbed into floor gully’s but terminated above the gully so we assumed this was the same as a Tundish.

Question

Could any of our Members recommend a good commercial plumbing company in or around Tewkesbury?

Replies:

1. Techmech. Contact: Mark via 07533 208883 or Mark@techmechsw.co.uk
2. We use a company called Techmech, who are very good. Contact – Mark. Telephone – 07553 208883
3. I have used a company called T1M. Only a small outfit with around 3 or 4 guys but they are competent. They do a fair bit for McDonalds so cant be too bad. The Owner is called – Yes you guessed it – Tim, and his number is 07971694605
4. I can highly recommend Duncan Smith – Tudorbuild Ltd. Tel: 07912 344179 Email: tudorbuildltd@hotmail.co.uk They are based in Nuneaton. They cover all my M&E work including all plumbing.  They are first class and extremely competitive.

Question

Please can you let us know which furniture suppliers ceda Members use and recommend? Thank you

Replies:

1.  Contract Furniture Specialists Limited, Units 11-13 The Quad, Sovereign Way, Off Sealand Road, Chester, CH1 4QP. Tel – 00 44 1244 398870
2. Lisa Cluer, Inside Out Contracts, 13 Nelson Road 1st Floor, Greenwich, London SE10 9JB, Tel: 020 8305 3130, Email: lisa@insideoutcontracts.com http://www.insideoutcontracts.com
3. Highly recommend ‘Boss Contract Furniture’. Contact Jon Urquhart – 07834 456812 or Kim Urquhart – 07834 456930  Email: boss2u@btconnect.com
4. I have used a company called Mauve Furniture: Cameron Robertson: sales@mauvedirect.co.uk Tel: Mob: 07739 030659. He has a great range and access to many suppliers and samples of furniture.
5. Mick Shephard of CFS. CEDABOND members – mick.shephard@cfspec.com
6. These are the two companies we have been using for many years: http://www.apex-office.com/ or http://www.acefurniture.uk.com/
7. We have found Furniture at Work to be very good.www.furniture-work.co.uk

Question

Can any fellow members please recommend a company in the North West (England) that collects/disposes used Commercial Refrigerated units and provides Hazardous Waste Notes?

Replies:

1. Cater–Kwik Ltd – http://www.caterkwik.co.uk
2. On national basis Prices Transport – https://pricetransport.co.uk/
3. Virudor do this for us and provide an excellent service
4. Harrison Carr Ltd are based in Leicester but provide this service nationwide. Contacts are Louisa Carr or Steve Carr. Tel: 0116 260 2222
5. EMR take most of ours (European Metal Recycling). I believe that they have locations throughout the UK so may be able to help.
6. Arolite Ltd offer this service to their customers so contact them for further information – http://www.Arolite.co.uk

Question

Can any ceda Member recommend an Asbestos Awareness Training course. Preferably in an on-line or downloadable format. Thank you

Replies

1. www.asbestostraininglimited.com
2. We use on-line Santia Asbestos Management Ltd – https://santia.co.uk/services/asbestos-training/e-learning Works well for us.
3. They could try the following: https://www.safetyservicesdirect.com/ I am advised you purchase the course for £22.50 and then complete it online.
4. We recommend Santia.
5. We use the following site for our Asbestos awareness training: https://www.simplecompliance.co.uk/sc-product-asbestos.phtml It’s worth paying a little extra to get the certificate at the end of the course.
6. We used ‘cloudtrainer’ however this was linked via M&S for retail projects. There are other UKATA Asbestos Awareness Training courses on line otherwise.
7. All our staff did the online Commodious courses they are recognised by all companies for H&S purposes. £10 each but do great bundle deals for £25 – £35 of 12 different certificates. They were acceptable for us registering with SSIPs.
8. We use High Speed Training for the on-line Asbestos Awareness Category A training. – it’s on-line.
9. We use our H & S consultancy company Worksafe Consultancy Services Ltd. It’s an online course: http://www.worksafeconsultancy.co.uk They have the link to training on their website.
10. High speed training do our on line courses. It’s about 25,.00 per individual, but you can bulk buy. They are accepted for all the sites we work on and you get a certificate too.
11. HSS training trainingsales@hss.com  do their own and the UKATA course for this and it is an E Learning program that takes around 1 hour to complete.
12. Hi-Speed training on line.
13. I use UKATA.ORG.UK online courses.
14. I believe a company called RESET Certification do an online course.
15. www.bainbridgeelearning.co.uk 
16. Our engineers have certificates from UKATA.
17. Our company utilises an online refresher training course that all engineering personnel have to undertake annually. The Provider we utilise for this is : Lucion Consulting ( Innov8 Risk Consultants) :Tel 0345 504 0303 if you negotiate , dependant on numbers then you can achieve a good rebate on pricing.
    Eurosafe UK offer a similiar service. Telephone no: is 01904 691 515
18. We use an on- line portal for our AA courses. This course is available to book online, alternatively call 0115 8970 529 or email training@essentialsiteskills.com to book your place or for further information.
19. We recommend www.highspeedtraining.co.uk  
    

Question

Has any projects-based member managed to successfully argue their case with HMRC (or a Main Contractor on a project specific basis) about remaining OUTSIDE the CIS scheme and avoid deductions?

If not, of those members who have been pulled into the scheme (and who use sub-contract engineers for installations), has anyone managed to do so purely as a ‘Sub-Contractor’?

 All replies will of course be treated with the strictest confidence.

Replies

1. We’ve had to sign-up but if anyone has argued successfully I don’t see why we can’t try to extricate ourselves from the unnecessary admin-burden. 
2. I had to write a headed letter saying were exempt as we were not conducting any structural improvements, basically we are only installing equipment to supplied service so that covered it, but going forward it would be good to know. 
3. We do work as a subcontractor on CDM sites outside of the CIS system. It was actually the HMRC who would not give us CIS classification. 
4. We haven’t managed to avoid CIS, as for the second question I’m not totally sure what’s being asked, BUT we do have experience of main contractors who fail to read the labour element of applications, against which they should levy the CIS, then they have made the deduction on the entire value. We then have to spend time explaining the error of their ways. Hope this helps.

Question

Can anyone recommend a freelance designer/ provider of BIM LEVEL 2 drawings (in Revit) please working within the foodservice industry please?

Replies

1. Bekithemba Moyo – Revit Technician at KCCJ Ltd. Email: bekithemba.moyo@kccj.co.uk
2. Sam Grayson. Tel: 07545 927952 www.digitaldesignprojects.co.uk
3. Mark Shentall. Email: Mark.Shentall@edgedpm.com
4. Dave York

Question

Do we have any members who do electrical installation first and second fix? Ideally nationwide coverage.

Replies

1. Kaitakare Ltd: We do install extraction Canopies and obviously make-up air into kitchens and wire them up also install gas interlock systems. Tel: 01785 716532 
2. Airedale Group: Yes, we have our own team of service and install’ engineers nationwide.  Tel: 01274 626666
3.  Dawson Design Projects Ltd: Yes, we do and can help. Tel: 01376 328888
4. I would suggest Gratte Brothers. Tel: 020 7837 6433

Question

Please could you recommend a good independent CAD designer?

Replies

1. James Brettle. Tel: 0121 585 9477 Mobile: 07886 788 105 Email: info@jbrettle.com
2. Digital Design Projects  www.digitaldesignprojects.co.uk
3. Oliver Hambley, Lead Designer at ceda Member company ‘CaterKwik’ said they can help. Direct Line – 01229 484942
4. I can recommend James Brettle.  He is very experienced.  Tel 07886 788105. Email info@jbrettle.com
5. Sanjai Rohatgi Tel: 07854 922012
6. Sam Grayson at Digital Design Projects. Tel: 07545 927952 www.digitaldesignprojects.co.uk
7. Russ Chadwick of CO5 Design
8. Dave York is a Freelance Cad Designer he works in 2d and 3d as well as a multitude of other Cad services.  we haven’t used Dave yet, but will do in the future. As we really like the look of his visuals. Price wise he has quoted me £20 per hour. His web site is https://www.dycadservices.com/ and email address is daveyork@outlook.com
9. Langley Foxall. Based up near Manchester. A lad called Sam Calvert he used to work for Lockharts. Very good drawings and superb on the visuals etc. He is on LinkedIn

Question

We have recently been challenged by Lincat & Falcon regards the subject of designing and installing gas salamanders above gas oven ranges.
We feel this is a vary grey area and can leave companies exposed to additional unrecoverable business costs which we want to avoid.
We would like to know what other  members experiences have been regards this issue.
Below is the communication we received from Falcon:-
We do not recommend Grill being placed over ranges and have not done now for a number of years, however it is solely up to the installing engineer and client to make the final decision regarding this, and any responsibility for such will be down to them.
The main reasons behind this are:
The sitting of grill above heat sources can cause components to see a higher temperature than would normally be expected and this in turn can lead to maintenance issues such as gas taps needing re-greased on a frequent basis and such general maintenance is not covered under the terms of our warranty and can lead to conflict.
In addition to this there are the health and safety issues of an item being used over a cook top as items could possibly result in items being dropped into a container/pan below containing something such as oil which could then splash and burn the operator or indeed the operator could try and catch this in turn burn themselves on the cook surface below.
The third issue is the influence of the flue gasses for the appliance below on the burner performance of the grill and it is possible that the flue gasses can affect the burner performance and cause a poor burning flame, in occasions such as this following the Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure the Grill would need to be isolated as the poor burning flame could lead to a high CO level and therefore the installation would be classed as At Risk.
I was actually contacted by The National Investigations Manager of Gas Safe at the end of November 2015  for details of our standpoint regarding the installation of grills above ranges and I advised them of the above and in turn they confirmed that this was their standpoint regarding the issue and it is not something just linked to Falcon appliances but all commercial catering equipment manufacturers.
Obviously the install needs to comply with BS6173 and also Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations and any issues linked to this will be raised as per the Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure.

Replies

1. As a business we do not generally design and install salamanders above other appliances especially gas.
   The only time we would consider it is generally with electric over induction if we have a situation where space is right we may partially sit over a gas appliance by no more than a third.
   The primary reason is around the gas reasons cited by falcon not so much the h and s issues which can arguably be overcome with staff training and risk assessment.
2. Gas Safe state that we are to abide by the manufacturers recommendations, which will rule out Falcon & Lincat.
   We would always avoid putting the grill above a range for all the reasons previously mentioned however, In certain circumstances, due to space,  the size of the canopy or, the clients individual preference, there is no alternative to have a grill over the range.
   Blue Seal do not discourage this type of installation therefore, in these circumstances I would use Blue Seal.
3. We have had the need to address this point in the past and are also aware it is a notable and in many respects a divisive issue on various engineering forums.
   It is difficult to argue with the position taken, in this instance by Falcon as the appliance manufacture and most certainly the locating of salamanders above ranges cannot be considered as the ideal scenario.
   And I agree entirely that locating them above such a high heat source can increase the frequency that maintenance will be required including but not limited to the re-greasing of gas taps.
   However, I find the other two stated reasons as slightly more debatable whilst still recognising their validity as the “ideal”.
   Firstly and in respect of the risk of items being dropped from the grill onto the range below and potentially onto pans of oil and water.
   This is undoubtedly a valid concern but I conclude that the manufacturer then to a large degree contradicts itself by manufacturing what it describes as “splashback and plate shelves” designed to locate above their oven ranges and thereby encouraging users to locate and store items in these positions, even if these are only plates and containers …. In other words a design which does still expose the operator to a similar risk even if to a lesser degree.
   I would argue similarly in respect of shelves or pot shelves being placed above ranges. Whilst we would never design these above fryers we are comfortable in placing them over hobs and indeed these are a staple of chef’s requirements and many kitchen installations.
   It should also be recognised that operators themselves have a duty of care in respect of the staff operating these facilities who they should suitably train to manage all such inherent risks.
   Secondly and in respect of the potential flue gas issue, we have been mindful of this and been aware to consider the issue both at initial installation and thereafter at after-sales maintenance visits and it is not one we have encountered as a problem.
   What we believe may have assisted us is having used bespoke grill support shelves, which themselves place a barrier skin between the 2 appliances and deflect flue gases from the lower appliance away from the burners of the upper unit. This is not necessarily the case where grill support “brackets” are used as supplied by some manufacturers when purchasing their grills.
   Similarly, the use of a splashback and plate (grill) shelf may insulate the grill to an extent where the splashback panel sits in front of the oven range’s rear mounted flue.
   Finally, it is worth noting and I would add that the continued requirement to mount salamander grills above oven ranges has to a large extent been driven by clients and operators.
   We have clients who utilise 2 salamanders on their cook line and where locating these above passive (fabrication) equipment items would require elongating the line by some 1800mm in kitchens already severely challenged for space! And so long as it remains less than ideal but neither illegal nor stray into the realms of being “at risk”, this isn’t going to happen!
   In such instances we have had an upfront dialogue with the client, explained both the official line taken by the manufacturer/supplier and the inherent potential risks posed to their operation along with the potential alternative solutions, and obtained their agreement to proceed, effectively indemnifying us in the event issue should arise at a later stage. All of the above obviously also predicated on the assumption that nothing we do is contrary to the requirements placed upon us by BS6173, the Gas Safety Regulations or indeed any other applicable regs.Until it becomes “illegal” as opposed to “less than ideal” we propose to continue this practice. As Falcon are themselves quoted as saying …. “it is solely up to the installing engineer and client to make the final decision regarding this”I hope the foregoing thoughts may be of interest.
4. The problem is there is no hard and fast rule, we try and work on the theory that the gill can be positioned so it is not too high for the kitchen staff to use it, but you also have to take into consideration the gap to the filter bank etc.
   We are trying to always fit onto and insulated shelf and then oversize the shelf so it protects the controls etc.
   The flue of gas and the grill burning secondary gases can be again a problem =, but as with a lot of these it would come down to the commissioning engineer and the tests carried our at this point.
   If space is tight then there is obviously no option, but try and stick to some common sense with regards to shelf heights and the insulated shelf etc.