Question

Could I ask the view of the Technical Steering Group, manufacturers and ultimately Gas Safe, on the query outlined below, as I believe that this really is one of those grey areas.

In respect Gas Safety and catering ventilation systems, HSE Catering Information Sheet 23 & 10. These documents refer to the BESA formally (HVCA) document DW172. Section 4.3 of this document states “that when installing combination ovens, the overhang to the front of the canopy should be increased to 600mm, to cope with the steam or fumes, when the door is opened” My understanding of this is that DW172 have recommended this to contain the steam within the canopy as when the oven doors are opened the steam will spill outside of the canopy, this I have never regarded as a gas safety issue, as the products of combustion is to the rear of the appliance, and should be contained satisfactorily within the standard 300mm regulation for canopy overhang.

When we install a new canopy and the scheme includes a combi , we always allow for 600mm overhang however, when installing a combi to an existing canopy with a 300mm overhang, is the installation compliant with all regulations? If this is not this will have an impact on the replacement combi market.

I look forward to hearing from you on this matter.

Replies

1. Whilst DW172 is accepted as the industry standard, it is not a regulation and therefore I am pretty sure that it will be the air quality CO2 readings (based on UP/19) that will determine the compliance of an installation in respect of ventilation, however, I have contacted Barrie Edgar at Gas Safe Register for his interpretation and will get back to you.I have heard back from Barrie who confirms that my initial reply is fundamentally correct, however, every installation should be subject to a risk assessment for that particular site to establish the implications of installing the combi. If it is a replacement for an old combi, it should be pretty straight forward, however, if it is an extra piece of kit, you need to establish that the ventilation is adequate to cope with it firstly from a gas point of view where DW172 air volumes should be used and secondly for the general atmosphere where a smoke test should indicate how much of the steam/hot air will dissipate around the kitchen. Assuming the air volumes are adequate, obviously the ideal solution is to fit a local extension to the canopy to bring it up to standard, however, if this is not possible, then assuming that the CO2 levels are under 2800ppm, you should record on your job sheet that the canopy is “not to current standard”.
2. Follow up question from Member Many thanks for the clarification, the only thing I would add and, I don’t know if this has its own implications, Gas Safe have now done away with the clarification “Not to current standards”. 
3. Follow up response from Technical Support  You are partly correct.  “Not to Current Standards” is no longer a reportable situation in the GIUSP as it does not necessarily relate to an unsafe situation, however, you can still record it on a job sheet. If you refer to our technical guidance document number 13 there is more detail.

Question

We are working in the design of a project where the kitchen is located in the basement. There is currently a manhole/with sump pump located in the space allocated for the kitchen area. We have recommended against this being left here but the cost to relocate may be prohibitive/the client obviously wishes to avoid. Can any member give advice as to whether there are any particular regulations that would specifically prohibit this situation?

Replies

CEDA Technical Support: Can you ask the member if the sump is collecting foul drainage from other parts of the building or just drainage from the kitchen area?

Reply from Enquirer: I am advised that it is only serving the kitchen area itself.

CEDA Technical Support to a CEDA contact: To the best of your vast knowledge, do you know of any regulation that prohibits or relates to the installation of a sump pump within a sump in a commercial kitchen? In the case that has been referred to me, I believe the sump will only deal with drainage from the kitchen and not involve foul water from other parts of the building.

Reply to Enquirer from CEDA Technical Support: My own experience was confirmed by the TSG which is that it is allowable providing the manhole cover is airtight, but check with the Local Buildings Inspector. I tried the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health but they only said that you should consult the local EHO.

The best advice I have been given is from a CEDA contact as below:

Reply from CEDA contact: It’s not ideal, but, in my experience, I’ve seen plenty installed inside Foodservice areas. As with Underground Interception systems, they should be outside the curtilage of the Kitchen operation.

This is a Building Regulations issue. Therefore, the Building Inspector would need to advise. Relevant BS code – The British Standard – BS EN 12056-1:2000 – Drainage Systems Inside Buildings.

“Drainage systems shall be designed and installed so that health and safety of the users and occupiers of the building is not affected, by amongst other things, the penetration of toxic or noxious odours into the building”. “Drainage pipework systems installed inside buildings shall not release vapours and foul air into the building”.

Food Safety Regs also come into play.

https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/multimedia/pdfs/publication/hygieneguidebooklet.pdf

https://www.food.gov.uk/enforcement/regulation/foodstandardsact

https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/multimedia/pdfs/fsactguide.pdf

http://tna.europarchive.org/20120419000433/http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/hiojregulation.pdf

Please refer to the following documents:

07-10-Grease-Traps-The-evidence.pdf

15-02-British-Water-FOG-CoP-Mechline-v.pdf

Question

Do you know of any service companies who service and maintain Coffee machines, in particular a Jura Giga X7 model, which is located in Liverpool – L30 postcode?

Replies

1. John Daw – JWD Technical – 07814687243 may be able to help – he is excellent.
2. There is a service company based in Liverpool called Combined Catering Services, they do service coffee machines. BUT on the down side they also sell equipment so there may be a conflict.

Question

I am having trouble finding any research or case studies supporting replacing sterilising sinks in schools with dishwashers. I wonder if any members may know of any?

Replies

1. I’m not aware of any but if they haven’t already used the H&S aspects against sterilising sinks, very, very hot water, steam, lifting, slips trips etc. Plus, energy consumptions must be huge, how clean is the water after a short time? Labour intensive. Above all it’s an antiquated method of washing up!
2. I have not come across anything specific however there is some small reference to manual washing in professional kitchens by Rohatsch et all section 4.7 pp 168-179. I would also research in google scholar as there are some articles that deal with it but not as a comparison.
3. The only time he has ever experienced a time where the sink has been changed to a dishwasher is when EHO raised query ref temperatures.
4. The regulations changed in 2013 and Page 16 3.1 Heat Disinfection of the FSA Guidance now shows that the requirement for 82^oc as a minimum rinse temperature has been removed making the need for Sterilising Sinks redundant. Sterilising Sinks were also considered to be too high a H&S risk. Chlorine Detergents will significantly reduce cross-contamination and reduce bacteria levels.
   FSA-ecoli-control-cross-contamination-guidance.pdf 
   FSA-Warewash-temperatures.pdf
5. Contact LACA – http://laca.co.uk/

Question

I am having some trouble sourcing a motorised exit table for a rack dishwasher. Needs to be a 90o powered exit 745mm from machine to wall. Plus exit roller with stop switch. Max Dimensions are 2200mm. Can the membership help?

Replies

1. Maidaid-Halcyon – www.maidaid.co.uk
2. Trak Hupfer
3. Trak Conveyor

Question

My client has this rather archaic cutting machine and the segmenter that is shown in the picture is broken and she needs a new one. Can any member let me know when I can get hold of one for her?

Replies

1. Prince Castle, they are an American company supported by FEM in the UK – http://www.fem.co.uk/
2. Metcalf

Question

Can anyone recommend a company who can crane equipment into a building? Only going up 2 floors – it’s in Greater London and it’s out of hours work.

Replies

1. Ainscough Crane Hire – Bradley Hall, Bradley Lane, Standish, Lancashire, WN6 0XQ. Tel: 01257 473423
2. KET (Keith Elkington Transport). Ask for Oli Elkington. His mobile no: 07854 441676
3. Alheavy Ltd – Tel: 01708-374400 Email: Paul@alheavy.com
4. D. Laidlaw & sons based in Kent
5. CityLifting – they have a variety of larger and smaller cranes – http://citylifting.co.uk
6. Ainscough – Tel: 0800 272637

Question

I am in need of some catering equipment installation engineers in Saudi Arabia, Riyadh to be more specific. Can the membership help?

Replies

1. McFarlane Telfer

2. George Roberts-Smith – Regional Director – McFT Catering & Refrigeration Equipment Maintenance 520 Al Nasr Plaza, Oud Metha, Dubai T +971 4 383 1523 M +971 52 254 0626 W McFT.ae

Question

Our Client has requested a fish tank in his kitchen for live fish. Would any of the members be able to assist in finding a supplier in the UK for this?
We are also looking for a UK supplier for a drop in Jet Spray Rinse & drip tray for washing cocktail shakers, similar to that at www.espressoparts.com/rinser-side-spray-24-x-7

Replies

1. CEDA Member ‘Brighton Catering Supplies’ on 01273 358535 can supply the Jug washer. For the fish tank, try Aquatic Design 020 7580 6764.
2. CEDA Member ‘GastroNorth’ on 0191 414 2882 can provide bespoke drip trays and glass rinse units
3. Try Brewfit  – http://www.brewfitt.com/brewfitt-dispense/product/base-tray/colour/gold# – they have all the various options available
4. Aquariums not my forte however we do use these in cocktail bars and fit into fabrication to refresh glasses http://www.die-pat.co.uk/products/plumbing-components/accessories/glass-washer/SB11
5. CEDA Member ‘Modo Commercial Kitchen Design’ can help with the glass refresher & drip tray. Tel: 01484 852350
6. The glass rinsers, we have purchased from America – with the usual associated issues. One item to be aware of during install is water pressure – will need a pressure reducing valve (also if water pressure too low they do continually weep) and back flow prevention.
7. Jaguar Espresso Systems offer a range of glass rinsers. http://www.jesuk.com/
8. We have a couple of sources for the glass rinser : http://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Pitcher_glass_rinser_s/2999.htm and also from: Jaguar Espresso Systems, 0118 959 9204 (page 74 of their catalogue)